Mar 28, 2007

Yes, Israel has a right to exist

My American guest asked me; if I believe that Israeli nation has the right to exist or not.  Yes, Israeli nation has the right to exist.




Amazed?!!!!!    Any way this amazement will vanish when you read my explanation..


Every people and every nation has the complete right to live freely and peacefully without harming others. That's the way I believe.


So, if we considered the Israeli nation which existed for long centuries before my birth, your birth and before the birth of all people on earth now, is a nation like any other nation, taking into consideration the lawful fact that the difference between nation and people or state is the element of authority, and asked ourselves if they have the right to exist or not, then, we can reply by another question; Are Israelis(Jews) human beings or not?!!


Now, my respond is clear; Jews who are sons of Israel(Jacob) are human beings, and only for that fact they have the complete right to live and exist. As a result; this Israeli nation has the right to exist.


BUT if were going to talk about Israeli state which has been declared in 1948, so, it's completely different. I won't say directly what I think about the right of Israeli state to exist, but firstly there are more important views than mine to Israeli state and its right to exist..


In the preamble of UN charter; you can read this as a general obligation on UN peoples;  ' practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours ..',  You can also read following in the  2nd article of UN charter;  'All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, ...'


So, what can we extract from these texts?!!!  Every people is obligated to live together in peace with its neighbours, and to be good neighbours!!!  Let me think for a moment;  Live in peace!! Good neighbours!!      As a good neighbour I help my neighbours in their troubles, share them in their happiness and sadness, exchange advice, greet them, visit them when they become ill, not to spy on them, ..etc. And if I'm not going to do all that, then the least thing which I have to do is that not to harm them and to steal their belongings, right?!!

So, how a people can be a good neighbour?!!!  Help other peoples in their troubles, share their happiness and sadness, exchange knowledge, not to spy on it.. . Yes, that's right. And if this people isn't going to do any of that, then the least thing to do is not to harm other peoples and not to steal what these peoples own.  It's an ethical obligation before being an obligation out of law.


As for the 2nd article it sets an obligation on states not to use any kind of force or even threat of using it in their relations together against  territorial integrity or political independence of any other state!!!  The obligation is so clear!!!  No state can use force against territorial integrity or political independence of other states to achieve any of its purposes.


Regarding to these texts, the declaration of the state  Israel is against international law!!!!!


Israeli people wasn't the good neighbour to Palestinian people, in contrary it stole its land without having a reasonable reason that justifies stealing Palestinian lands from their people and random killing.  On the other hand, Israel clearly used force against integrity of Palestinian land (Declaration of a state on another state represents the most grave threat to integrity of this state!!!)

As for the 2nd part of the article '..political independence..'  Israel deleted and destroyed political independence of Palestine. Actually; after there were an independent state called 'Palestine ', this state has been deleted!!!!  And another state has been declared instead on this state!!!


Yes, Jews(Israelis) had a purpose which was their unity on one land under one state, after oppression committed against them during WWII, and even before that for long centuries. They gathered and discussed about the good area that will be their state, one of the choices was Uganda but they refused it. Then Balfour Declaration has been made to establish national home for Jews in Palestine !!!!!!! And 1948 came by the birth of this state on Palestinian lands,, 'Israel'. A nd since then there is continues extension for the sake of Israeli state against Palestinian land.

The right of Jews to unit must be respected and even to be supported, but if this right opposed with rights of other peoples living in peace, independently and under an established and situated authority, then, the right of this people must be respected firstly.


If we're going to talk about humanical law, then we'll fill thousands of long papers.

Israel daily break the humanical rule which obligates not to attack children and babies. Israel daily break the huanical law which obligates not to attack women and old men. Israel daily break humanical rule which obligates not to attack armless people. Israel daily break the humanical rule which obligates not to attack civilians. Israel daily break the humanical law which obligates not to target civil homes and destroy habitation apartments.


So, what can be a good solution?!!!!

I recommend a solution. Why don't Israelis declare their own state on a land where there is no people and where there is no independent state?!!!  Do you know where this kind of land can be found?!!! No people, No independent state?!!!! .....  Antarctica.

Illogical, right?!!!!

So, is it logical to accept killing and killing and killing of babies like Eman Hajjo (4 months old) in 5-1-2001, Sarah (1.5 years old) in 1-10-2001, children like Mohammad Al-Dorra (12 years) 30-9-2001, old men like ( Ahmad Yaseen) and civilians (don't need here any example as the world knows the daily and continues random killing) ?!!!!  Is it logical to accept daily destructive of civil homes and targeting civil targets?!!!!  Is it logical to accept creating more and more orphans and more and more widows every day passes in Palestine?!!!   Is it logical to accept displacing people from their homes?!!!  Is it logical to accept frightening safe people?!!!


So, if the first solution is illogical, and the second is illogical at all too, what is the solution then?!!!!


51st article of UN charter gave us the solution; 'Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations..'

So, it's the right of Palestinian people to defend himself and his land the same like the right of self-defence which any people have and can practice against invaders. And this resistance must last till the Palestinian state which existed before 1948 be declared, and violence be rejected, and real peace prevails, and rights be got back to their owners, and war criminals be provided to international neutral courts.


I believe that, any solutions to the Palestinian issue won't do any thing, because all will be temporary and won't last. So,there must be a permanent solution which depends firstly on respecting international law and punishing criminals and getting back rights to their owners.  And without that; you'll see a hundred Qana, and a hundred Deir Yassen, and the problem won't be solved. If the group of the four requires; rejecting violence, respecting previous deals, confession by Israel and ending resistance, so I think that they aren't targeting the good solution, but the good solution must depends on following basics;

  • Israeli state is against international law; preamble of UN charter, 2nd article of UN charter.
  • Israeli state is an invader land.
  • Israeli daily deeds against armless Palestinian people is against humanical and international law.
  • The right of Jews to unit must not harm others rights.
  • Self-defence against killing innocents and stealing lands represents an admitted and legal right.
  • If it's not good to decrease Israeli state, so was it good to delete Palestinian state?!!

Was my view rational?!!



All visitors of this blog are welcomed to discuss this issue, but please;

1.       Reviles aren't welcomed at all, only objective discussion.

2.       Circular and philosophical discussions aren't welcomed, but direct points are recommended.


Mohamed said...

Dong Dong Dong :)

Hi my guest, The Loop Garoo Kid,

I'm so sorry for this great delay, but I had my study which was more important than any other thing.

You can notice that both last two posts are in reply for you. I took long time to finish them, I searched on the web for its content, as we say in our Egyptian language; 'Metkallef', I mean that I tried to made them as the best.

I hope that you read every letter to understand fully my point of view.

I'll try to reply your point; 'Explosives bombs' when I have the time.

Enjoy reading,

Meet you soon,


The Loop Garoo Kid said...


I started to comment; navigated away from the site; and lost, I think, the beginning of my response so I apologize if it appears and I am redundant. Of course it is important to study and I wish you well in that regard, although If you are studying law, I suggest you attempt another discipline.

I am afraid I was never amazed, Mohamed, because when I read your first sentence in which you referred to "the Israeli nation," I knew what was to follow. If I may editorialize, your reasoning closely resembled the southern product of a north walking horse.

Perhaps I will return sometime and comment at length, but I doubt it. You infer that time is a precious commodity and indeed it is. I am afraid that trying to debate you, Mohamed, is a waste of that precious commodity. I may as well whistle an aria to the deaf or shout at the rain for the good it will do.

The question, Mohamed, was: "Does the nation of Israel have a right to exist" and the word "nation" in this instance is synonomous with the word "state" and from scanning your post briefly, I know now your answer is "No."

Remember when I told you that you were my enemy?

Then, if I read your comment correctly, you concluded with an opinion that you did not believe Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

We have no common ground, Mohamed, if you believe that the State of Israeli does not have a right to exist. If you also believe that Al Qaeda was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks, you have now become a full fledged citizen of the realm of looniness.

Like many of your brethern, you wish to deny the present and live in a combination of the past and the never was or will be.

A famous baseball player philosopher named Satchel Paige once said: "Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you."

Ave atque vale.

Mohamed said...

Hi Mr.Kid,

No dear. That's not correct that you doubt your return for the reason that we don't have common ground, or that I won't hear you as you think.
BUT the simple real reason is that you have no thing to say.

If you truly have any point; you'd presented it, 'defended' it, and supported it by evidences. That if you have a point, but as I said you do not have.

I call this 'Escape from facing challenges'. You escaped even before reading the full text of the post.

I'd like to tell you another thing; you suffer from the lake of coexistence. 'You don't stand on the same ground' equals for you; 'You are my enemy'!!!

You can learn real coexistence from the great Muslim Imams (Abo Hanifa, Al-Shafe3e, Malek and Ibn Hanbal). However every one has his own view of Islamic rules about branches, but they all loved each other, and even every one was thinking that the other is better than him. However this difference was in religious issues.
Yes, they differed. Yes, they had their own views. BUT; Yes, they loved each other. Yes, they respected each other. Yes, they coexisted. No, they didn't considered each other as enemies.

For now, if you are brave enough, I expect that you defend your answer.

You contradict yourself; to say; 'I am afraid I was never amazed, .. when I read your .. "the Israeli nation," I knew what was to follow. ' and then to say; 'and the word "nation" in this instance is synonomous with the word "state"' That means that you believe that nation means 'state', and in the same time believes that it don't mean 'state'!!!
You must know that 'Nation' is social and cultural structure, but 'State' is in addition political.

You must know also that I'm not deaf. When I discuss with others, I firslty hear their views, contemplate, try to find meeting points. I don't escape nor I consider those who don't share me the same perspective as enemies.
I only become deaf when reviles starts. I don't 'HEAR' or 'ENUNCIATE' reviles. That's what my religion teachs me.

Tapfer sein, deine Perspektive verteidigen

The Loop Garoo Kid said...

Oh course your view is irrational Mohamed.

You start with a premise and then selectively parse bits and pieces of the U.N. Charter and throw in a few photograghs of dead children and that is your argument.

I will respond. First let us ignore the currrent policies of various countries with which we disagree. As you know I am an American. I did not believe invading Iraq was a good idea, if for no other reason than having read the history of that particular country, I knew the sectarian violence which it is currently experiencing was inevitable.

Last year, I did not think Israel's response to Hezbollah's criminal act was appropriate.

But on to your posting and comments.

Don't be silly. Not everyone with whom I share no common ground is my enemy. You are my ebnemy because no matter how y0u preach peace, you are opposed to the institutions that I cherish an dwould see them destroyed.

Basically, Mohamed, you were being perfectly honest when you asked why don't the Israelis form a politcal state where there are no people like in Antartica?

Guess what Mohamed. The state of Israel is here to stay. You may whine and cavil about it being illegal, but it's here to stay.

I have thought about nationhood for the past few days and two examples very close to home present themselves.

The first is Cuba. Castro seized power in 1959. Many people opposed to his Marxist-Leninist vision fled. A significant portion of the population of south Florida, the state closest to Cuba are Cuban or Cuban American. These people hate Castro with the same venom Palestinians hate Israelis. They are already planning celebrations when Castro dies.

But whatever they feel and however much they hate, there is no going back to way it was before Castro seized power. These people will never get back their property. Their challenge is to move on.

Please understand that most Cuban Americans are good citizens living the American Dream. But there is no going back.

Even closer to home, let us consider the United States. Strictly speaking, the nation that is the United States is illegal. On July 4, 1776, the representaives of the thirteen British colonies of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Deleware, Virginia, North and South Carolina, and Georgia declared their independence from the British crown. They rebelled against their lawful king and ruler in an act of treason punishable by hideous death.

Yes, Mohamed, the greatest modern nation is illegal. Quick, cite some portion of the U.N. Charter.

Better yet, let me refer you the Declaration of Independence which in my opinion is one of the most eloquent documents ever written.

It is lamentable that adults and children are dying in the Palestinian territories. Like many Arabs, you blame Israel. So tell me Mohamed why your peace loving Arab Palestinian brethern fire rockets into Israel on a daily basis? These rockets are aimed indiscrimantely.

Tell me why a week does not go by when I read or hear on the radio of some member of Fatah killing a member of Hamas or vice versa.

Have you read the history of Palestine? Can you tell me when the area known as Palestine was self governing?

Although it existed and was conquered by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Greeks, the Kingdom of Judea existed for about 100 years before being conquered by Rome beginning in 66 BC.

Since that time Palestine has been ruled by various nations or peoples including Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders, Ottoman Turks and the British.

But now, as I write this the Palestinians are being giiven the opportunity for self rule and are making a hash of it.

Is there hope? I am pessemistic. You make me pessemistic, Mohamed.
You will not accept that the nation state of Israel not only has a right to exist but also is here to stay. It doesn't matter how many Palestinians blow themselves up on buses. It doesn't matter how many rockets are fired.

There is a saying: "If you want peace, work for justice."

Your concept of justice for the Palestinians is untenable. Failing to accept Israel's right to exist merely prolongs the misery of the Palestinians who, to a certian degree, have always been pawns of their Arab brethern in addition to being troublemakers. Are you prepared to discuss the expulsion of the Palestinians from Jordan by King Hussein in 1970-71?

Once you accept Israel's right to exist, then you and the Israelis can move forward. Until you do, no matter what specious arguments you propound, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.Just as you ignore history you are shackled to the past.

I think you are deaf, Mohamed. You claim that your religion teaches you to listen. I am not qualified to comment on that subject. But I am qualified to comment on your ability to listen as I have read your arguments and found them wanting.

You are deaf because you start with the premise that the nation of Israel should not exist. I suppose that renders you blind also.

You may say, "Mr. Kid, you are blind and deaf also because you start with the premise that Israel has the right to exist and that makes you deaf to all of my arguments."

You may say that but in response, I say, the nation of Israel exists. Unless you foreswear your peaceful ways and drive every Israeli Jew--remember some Israelis are Muslim Arabs and Christians of various sorts--into the sea, there is no solution for you or the Palestinians. Unless of course, you and the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist and move forward from there. There is no going back Mohamed.

Tomorrow night is the first night of Passover in which Jews all over the world celebrate their deliverance from bondage in Egypt.

Shalom Mohamed.

no_slappz said...


Based on your view of the lawful formation of nations, tell me which nations in the world today have a legal right to exist.

Please find as many as you can.

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